And once again Ergun Caner goes for the record…how many lies can I tell in 10 minutes?

22 07 2010

Another apalling display of bald-faced lying by Ergun Caner.

May God grant him repentance.

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18 responses

22 07 2010
forallahsake

May Allah guide us to practice what we breach,

Prophet Mohammed (sallallahu alaihi wa-sallam) said:
“Woe be on one who speaks and lies in order to make people laugh, woe be on him.” [Abu Dawood vol: 3, no. 4972.]

10 06 2012
torreycourierevangelism

All liars will have their part i9n the lake of fire!

22 07 2010
rpavich

Forallsake,
did you mean “practice what we “PREACH” and not “breach”?

22 07 2010
forallahsake

my bad
preach :)

22 07 2010
forallahsake

its for ALLAH sake by the way
thanks

23 07 2010
GaryV

Forallsake, do I then take it that you renounce the Al-Taqiyya, which allows Muslims to lie with impunity to non-Muslim infidels (such as we)? And if you claim you DO renounce lying to infidels, how can we believe you since we know from Muslim scholars that it’s OK for you to lie to we infidels?? (Citations available upon request).

Hmmmm…….pot, meet kettle.

23 07 2010
GaryV

A link for those unfamiliar with the Muslim mandate to lie to infidels…….

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.shtml

1 08 2010
forallahsake

I apologize for the late reply

A few points to clarify:

1- Telling a lie is strictly forbidden according to the Holy Qur’an, the main source of Islamic teachings and instructions:
“It is those who believe not in the Signs of God, that forge falsehood: it is they who lie!” (16:105)

“And pursue not that of which thou hast no knowledge; for surely the hearing, or the sight, the heart all of those shall be questioned of” (17:36)

“Not a word does he utter but there is a sentinel by him, ready (to note it).” (50:18)

“O ye who believe! Fear God and be with those who are true (in word and deed)” (9:119)

“God will say: “This is a day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,- their eternal Home: God well-pleased with them, and they with God: That is the great salvation, (the fulfilment of all desires).” (5:119)

and from the AUTHENTIC sayings “hadeeths” of the Prophet Mohammad “peace and prayer be upon him”, the second main source of Islamic teachings and instructions :

“The signs of the hypocrite are three: when he speaks he lies, when he promises he breaks his promise and when he is entrusted he betrays the trust.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

“Truthfulness leads to righteousness, and righteousness leads to Paradise. And a man keeps on telling the truth until he becomes a truthful person. Falsehood leads to Al-Fajur (i.e. wickedness, evil-doing), and Al-Fajur (wickedness) leads to the (Hell) Fire, and a man may keep on telling lies till he is written before Allah, a liar.” (Bukhari and Muslim)

2- You brought up the word “infidel” which, believe or not, exists in several English/Arabic dictionaries having the meaning of “non Christian”
so I as a non Christian is an infidel to you. The less harsh meaning of an infidel to you is someone who does not believe in your faith and vice versa.

3- There is no need for me to lie or manipulate you as I can speak freely representing my faith with no worries of fears. I am just hear to share some knowledge. So yes we are on the same page regarding condemning telling a lie.

4- I will post a whole new reply regarding that link you have posted … :)

5- it is forALLAHsake … not forallsake

again my apologies for the late reply
peace

1 08 2010
rpavich

forallashsake,
Did you read the article that Gary posted the link to?

Do you have any SPECIFIC refutations of it’s content?

You contradict the article and the Muslim Scholar cited in that article.

Specifically what was incorrect information in the article?

2 08 2010
Garyv

Sir,you did not address the question. In fact,I find your response intriguing not only for it’s non-denial but for your rather cryptic assertion that there isn’t any NEED to deceive us .

Of course,as the sources cited make clear,the need to deceive gives you the right to deceive.

Would you be so kind as to give us a head’s up when you feel the NEED to deceive us so we can be prepared?

Of course that would undermine the whole idea of deception. Maybe Ergun felt the need to deceive too?

12 08 2010
forallahsake

Gary, you have used the term “deceive” a bit too often.
The reason I am taking such a long time to reply is that this article in the you have provided, is that it takes alot of Qur’anic versus out of context and it used them to prove something that does not exist.
I deceive you ? , why is that ?
let us use our minds here gentle men, I deceive you ? can someone give me a reason why I would do so ? to convert you ? or just for the fun of it ?

One of the main motive that drives me here and get me going with you is this:

” Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.” (60:8)

so lets see? I deal with you kindly and become just by DECEIVING YOU ?

There you go another verse

“Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance”
(16:125)

Wisdom and beautiful preaching … argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious … I can not see “deception” or “lying ” ?
————————————————————-
I was agreeing with you that lying for the sake of making people laugh is renounced , why would you put me and this guy in the video in one angle ?
you do not take my words for granted ? why ? because I would deceive you ? :)
lets be rational here, or at least do it internally

I think the dialog between scholars and intellectuals of both religions ( I imagine you both represent the Christian Faith) have reached a much advanced level than to accuse each other of lies and deceptions

so for you me and you to have a decent discussion, I think for both of our interests, lets focus on a much more important topics rather than accusing people of lying and deceptions in an Impetuous way !

I promise you, though, I will take the time to explain why this article is not accurate and harsh towards the right Islamic faith
and I want to ask you please, if you do still have the attitude of mistrust Skepticism of my honesty and sincerity, please tell me so
because I honestly think we will go nowhere and it will be a waste of time

13 08 2010
GaryV

Let’s try this AGAIN, shall we? Do you deny the Al-Taqiyya, which allows Muslims to lie with impunity to non-Muslim infidels (such as we)?

After all that typing, for some odd reason, you again failed to answer that simple question.

AND, for the sake of clarity, as you’ve obviously missed the point of my posts. The Al-Taqiyya is hardly a novel concept in Islam known only to those with an Islamic Secret Decoder Ring. I didn’t say you ARE deceiving us, I’m asking how we can believe the adherent of a religion which PERMITS deception.

YOU my friend, rather than simply stating plainly that you reject the Al-Taqiyya, instead stated that you had no REASON to deceive us………..which is actually DEFINITIONAL of the Al-Taqiyya, since the lies must have a proper (in the Islamic sense) REASON behind them.

I assume now that you see my dilemma.

But, first things first……..Do you deny the Al-Taqiyya?? A simple “yes” or “no” is all that’s required. Chucking up other verses unrelated to the Al-Taqiyya is not a response.

Then, I’d like to know if you consider yourself in a state of Jihad with the US/Western world/Christians. This will have a direct bearing on the discussion.

13 08 2010
rpavich

Gary,
As usual you are the human scalpel cutting through the double-speak…

Forallahsake, can you address Gary’s specific points this time?

29 09 2010
Mark

amen!

14 08 2010
forallahsake

Dear Gary and RPavich:
As I have posted earlier, Muslims are strongly NOT allowed to lie and they will be punished if they do so EXCEPT for certain circumstances:
1- Lying to make peace between two sides. ( the cause is clear here and I can not see why you would object that) and there are details and rules for that even.
2- Lying to a spouse in a minor matter such as, saying a compliments like looks, smell, nice dress etc. ( and again I cannot see why you would object this cause )
3- Lying in a STATE OF WAR. (i.e. military situations and there is NO and I repeat NO treaties or covenants )
4- To preserve one’s life. and here Al-Taqiyaa can be used under a few conditions:
A) Al-Taqiyaa permission shall be used only in case of necessity, and the introduction of determination better. Scholars agreed that whoever prefers to be killed for his religion rather than using Al-Taqiyaa gets a much higher reward ( a good example is Ammar and his parents whom were persecuted to death )

“Another victim of the highhandedness of Quraish was ‘Ammar bin Yasir, a freed slave of Bani Makhzoum. He, along with his mother and father, embraced Islam in its early phase. They were repeatedly made to lie on the burning sand and were beaten severely. ‘Ammar was at times tossed up on embers. The Prophet [pbuh] was greatly moved by the atrocities which were being perpetrated upon ‘Ammar and his family. He always comforted them and raised his hand in prayer and said: “Be patient, you will verily find your abode in the Paradise.” Yasir, the father, died because of repeated tortures. Sumaiyah, ‘Ammar’s mother was bayoneted to death by Abu Jahl himself, and thus merited the title of the first woman martyr in Islam. ‘Ammar himself was subjected to various modes of torture and was always threatened to sustain severe suffering unless he abused Muhammad [pbuh] and recanted to Al-Lat and ‘Uzza. In a weak moment, he uttered a word construed as recantation though his heart never wavered and he came back once to the Prophet [pbuh] , who consoled him for his pain and confirmed his faith. Immediately afterwards the following verse was revealed:

“Whoever disbelieved in Allâh after his belief, except him who is forced thereto and whose heart is at rest with Faith —.” [Al-Qur'an 16:106]

——————————————————–
B)in case when using Al-Taqiyaa, it has to be to the minimum lie and its only verbally ( not physically..etc)
——————————————————–
C) Muslims are strongly obliged to get out of the state in which they have to use Al-Taqiyaa because it is the least preferred state
———————————————————-
D) The Application of using such Al-Taqiyaa exists in a limited places where Muslims get harassed, arrested, physically abused, or killed for only announcing or practicing their religion

all in all, it is only used to preserve one’s life and health when oppressed
and this is NOT applied when presenting Islam nor in a peace state

Sorry I tried to be as brief as possible, if you need more explanation I’m happy to so because each of these states I mentioned have certain rules and conditions that would take me pages to present

Thank you

14 08 2010
GaryV

Thank you for the reply. Now we’re getting somewhere.

So, let’s examine this. You can lie to make peace.You can lie to your spouse a little. You can lie to preserve your life. You can lie when you deem it necessary. And you can lie when you are at war.

While the others are interesting, I find the last one particularly so, and wonder how it fits into another question of mine you neglected to address.

Do you consider yourself in a state of lesser Jihad with the West/Christians?? For the sake of clarity, greater Jihad is the inner struggle against evil, lesser Jihad is an outward struggle against infidels (which as we’ve seen comprises all of us here from the Islamic viewpoint).

Again, a simple “yes” or “no” will suffice. Do you consider yourself in a state of lesser Jihad with Christians/the West??

21 08 2010
forallahsake

Brother ( I will give the permission to myself to call you so, at least in humanity we are brothers),
I apologize for the late reply
to answer your question, No I do not consider myself in the lesser Jihad against you in particular, against the West, nor against Christians.
A few points I would like to point out:
1) I am in peacefully trying to have an intellectual and useful dialog with you, as I am simply sitting behind a laptop trying to make use for myself and hopefully you out of this converysation
2) I myself spent a good 5 years doing my college in the United States, a Western and a Christian Nation. I have made friends with people from different faiths and lived there as any normal visitor, no hidden agenda or anything like that
3) the outward struggle against infidels you mentioned should be declared by the Islamic leaders and should be known in order for me to consider myself in a state of that lesser Jihad, again I stress it would be CLEARLY announced, not hidden.
4) I am deeply hoping that our small discussion would have a higher standard than you being confused whether I hide any kind of hostility toward you
5) And I am hoping it is the same feelings from your side:
“Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say: “We are Christians:” because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.” (5:82)

Waiting for further questions and comments
peace

24 08 2010
GaryV

Brother ( I will give the permission to myself to call you so, at least in humanity we are brothers),
I apologize for the late reply
to answer your question, No I do not consider myself in the lesser Jihad against you in particular, against the West, nor against Christians.

Why not? You and all Muslims have been repeatedly called to Jihad against Christians and the West. By what rationale do you exclude yourself from this call?

A few points I would like to point out:
1) I am in peacefully trying to have an intellectual and useful dialog with you, as I am simply sitting behind a laptop trying to make use for myself and hopefully you out of this converysation

What end are you attempting to achieve? You initial comment was directed at “practicing what we preach”. Well, Ergun Caner indeed failed to do so by lying. However, my point is that it’s the height of hypocrisy to call him to task for doing so from within a religious system that inscripturates, and codifies lying when convenient, and indeed has a plethora of instances where lying is condoned.

As such, it is impossible for me to believe that you are not in a state of Jihad (and thereby are simply ignoring your duty under your religious leaders), that you are not lying to me with self-perceived impunity right now.

Once you admitted that lying to infidels IS a part of your religious system, and that I am indeed an infidel when viewed from your religious perspective, my only recourse is to assume you’re lying.

You criticize Caner for lying because it’s AGAINST what Christianity preaches, yet your religious system actually codifies, inscripturates and excuses lying. Would you excuse him if he were a good Muslim, since a good Muslim has many recourses to lying, rather than excoriating him for lying as a Christian because we have no such allowances for lying?

I find the inconsistency of your position staggering.

2) I myself spent a good 5 years doing my college in the United States, a Western and a Christian Nation. I have made friends with people from different faiths and lived there as any normal visitor, no hidden agenda or anything like that

This sounds suspiciously like the guy who protests an accusation of racism by saying “Some of my best friends are black.”

Isn’t it the duty of a good Muslim to be concerned with the spread of Islam at least in territorial expansion, and to exert the influence of Islam to the ends of the earth? Of course it is.

3) the outward struggle against infidels you mentioned should be declared by the Islamic leaders and should be known in order for me to consider myself in a state of that lesser Jihad, again I stress it would be CLEARLY announced, not hidden.</blockquote]

Al Quida, Islamic Jihad, the Taliban, Hamas, Islamic Brotherhood, Anwar Al-Awlaki,The World Islamic Front, Imam Shakir, Bakri Muhammed, The Council on America-Islamic Realtions (which has been named as a funder of Hamas and their chartered war to destroy Israel and the West), the FBI estimates conservatively that fully 10% of the mosques in the US preach violent Jihad against the West,etc etc etc.

I could go on nearly ad infinitum.

How much more clear a call to Jihad do you seek from Muslim leaders?

4) I am deeply hoping that our small discussion would have a higher standard than you being confused whether I hide any kind of hostility toward you

Your position toward me is inconsequential. Your position toward Ergun Caner is inconsistent with the tenets of your own religion. If you allow lying when necessary, you have no ground to criticize anyone who lies, nor do you have the benefit of the doubt as to your own truthfulness since lying is permissible to you when “necessary” against infidels……and I have no way of then discerning whether you’re lying or not about lying to me, or about being in Jihad against the West (which constitutes a state of war which opens the way further for lies against infidels such as I). I’m just seeking a bit of internal consistency.

5) And I am hoping it is the same feelings from your side:
“Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say: “We are Christians:” because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.” (5:82)

My feelings are also inconsequential, but if I assume you are a good Muslim, I know I can’t believe you, and that your faith calls for Christianity’s demise.

Name the Islamic Sharia-ruled country that allows Christians to spread their faith. Name the clerics who do not claim that the Bible is corrupted (without a shred of documentary evidence and 600 years after the fact), and that Christians who worship Christ are idolators (and therefore not people of the Book at all). The Koran specifically damns and calls for war against those who say “God has a Son” and who refuse to renounce that or cease spreading that faith. Yet you ask us to believe that you are not in a state of Jihad against us, and that you CAN lie to us…….. but aren’t RIGHT NOW.

Either you’re lying or you’re not a very good Muslim.

5:72, 73
Surely, they have disbelieved who say: “Allah is the Messiah (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary).” But the Messiah (Jesus) said: “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” Verily, whosoever sets up partners in worship with Allah, then Allah has forbidden Paradise for him, and the Fire will be his abode. And for the Zalimun (polytheists and wrongdoers) there are no helpers.

Surely, disbelievers are those who said: “Allah is the third of the three.” But there is no Allah but One Allâh . And if they cease not from what they say, verily, a painful torment will befall the disbelievers among them.

Note that Muhammad deliberately singles out two of Christianity’s primary tenets: 1) the Messiah, i.e. the Son of God, is God in the flesh, and 2), the doctrine of the Trinity. Therefore, Muhammad and the Quran classify the overwhelming majority of Christians as “unbelievers” (kuffar), and therefore not under the protectorate of those the Koran calls “The people of The Book”.

Waiting for further questions and comments
peace

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